PM Chat x Patrice Embry
Patrice Embry is a Senior Digital Project Manager based in Philly via https://www.patrice-embry.com/
As a seasoned senior project manager, what has been your inspiration to pursue new roles and projects with new teams?
I actually have inattentive-type ADHD and really thrive with lots of new things. I also have been with enough agencies full time that didn’t put a lot of emphasis on burnout and balance, and would overload PMs to the point where they were working 10 hour days and freaked out most of the time. I wanted control over my own schedule, and the number of projects I was doing. That, combined with my need for new things, made freelance a natural fit. That allows me to stay positive, engaged, and interested.
How has Project Management changed from what it was in the late 90’s/early 2000’s to now?
TOOLS. There’s just so many tools. So many ways to try to automate things. I am all for automation, but I also like a good, old-fashioned spreadsheet or document to get my thoughts out. As a freelancer, I work with so many tools, and each of them has some kind of major deficiency, and often that’s because the agency is not using it as intended.
Would you say the agency culture is on steroids or have you become more efficient, strategic and balanced when it comes to delivering digital as a service?
I think this is something that’s in flux right now, and I’m glad it is. I hope we’re coming out of the “speed vs. quality” era and into the “we want to do a good job” era. I think that freelancers are helping this, because agencies are able to flex their teams to grow or shrink with the work they are selling. The notion has often been to sell as much as possible as fast as possible so you can afford to bring new people on, but that is definitely putting your existing team at risk of fleeing. And in this “Great Resignation” period we’re in, that’s just not an option. So using freelancers, or putting out additional funds to hire before work lands (which is really how it should be done) is helping put the emphasis on realistic goals and quality outcomes instead of how quickly something can be done. We’re also in an age where the technology and expertise that agencies bring to their clients far exceeds what the client can do in-house. There used to be this refrain of “why does this cost so much?” that I don’t see as much anymore. Clients are starting to trust agencies more, and so the crunch to get things done quickly to please a client is much easier to push back on today. The power dynamic is more balanced.
How is a Producer role different from Project Management? And does it only apply to specific types of agencies and their services?
You know, I’ve always thought that they were really the same. Mostly because my desired brand of project management does what a producer is said to do: have a more strategic role, and take on a lot of the responsibilities that an account manager would do. That’s really boiling it down, but those seem to be the key differentiators. I also think that everyone’s ideas of both roles can be very different, so it really doesn’t matter as much what we’re called as it is what the folks we’re working with consider the role to be. I feel the same way about senior PM vs. PM, and sometimes even Director level, because that often still comes with project responsibilities where in most other industries, it only deals with directing the folks who do the work (and not doing the work yourself.) It’s not so much the title as it is the expectations that agencies attach to the role.
You’ve worked across marketing, software and design focused firms. Where are you the strongest and what types of projects do you enjoy the most?
I think I’m the strongest at certain types of projects that span those focuses, not necessarily any one of those verticals. I know my sweet spot: a project that is somewhere around 3 months in duration, with a very experienced team. It doesn’t matter as much what the firm does or what the project is for. I will say I enjoy certain focuses more than others: having worked with SuperFriendly, I learned I really love design projects, where before, I was more into technical projects and kind of felt disconnected when I managed design projects. That’s another place where freelance is great for me - new things, new types of projects, new ways of thinking.
Assuming we are talking about “best practices”, what type of project management approach do you typically stand by no matter the agency or service type?
There’s a few must-haves for me. Internal status updates, which sometimes the teams don’t care about, but I do - I need to know how things are going and to interface with the team as a whole. Knowing all the steps to each part of the project OR having the people responsible for those parts taking on the responsibility of managing them. I don’t like doing work for work’s sake. I’m always going to have 2 kickoffs - one internal, one with the client. There aren’t many times where I won’t do a daily standup at least as an async slack status. I am always going to keep track of budget my way, usually regardless of what budgeting the agency reports. All of these are things I know I need to do for myself, in order to feel good about being on top of things.
“Alignment comes when everyone is truthful and trusting. It sounds simple, but I think all of us know how hard that can be.”
Some agencies like to keep things very fluid with their clients (scope as you go, very open ended SOWs, etc). Do you see this type of approach being successful? What factors needs to work well for that to happen?
I don’t think I’ve done much of complete open ended projects, but I’ve done a lot of sprint-based pricing and a good amount of fixed budget “do what we can with this money” type of projects. I actually think they’re great, for the most part. You get to have a lot more control over where you put your energy. This only works if your clients really trust you, and if you have clearly shared goals. It also means a lot more attention being paid to what each person is expending, as far as energy and output. The most successful sprint-based pricing agency I’ve worked with is 3Advance, where clients put their trust into the team to make good product choices and use time wisely. And SuperFriendly’s fixed price projects really changed the way I think about how to manage people and their expectations, both clients and team members.
We all hear about PM burn out. How/where can digital teams shift in order to create a more balance work environment for project managers?
It’s that age-old answer: it depends. There’s really no single answer. Ops/management need to ask their team what will help them avoid burnout, and they need to be committed to listening and taking action based on what the team says they need. I know that I burn out when things drag on too long, or when I have too many things to do. But what is “too long”? What is “too many things?” I can’t even answer those questions consistently myself. It’s all about where you are at the moment. So I think the key is to ask, take action, and then ask again. Make teams feel like they can come to you when they need you to help them keep themselves on track, even if the workload is the same as 6 months ago. You never know what else has changed in someone’s life to make workload unmanageable.
A PM is only as strong as their team. How can PM creative positive influence within their teams in order to support their own success?
Trust, humor, candor, and candy. Well, those things work for me, anyway. Empathy goes only so far, it needs to extend to trust. That means listening, understanding, and doing what you said you’d do. Humor helps to break tension and lets people relax, even for a moment. Candor is transparency, and telling things as they are without unneeded emotion. And my motto has always been “candy makes friends”. Much harder to do in a remote setting, but still not impossible.But I would be doing everyone a disservice if I didn’t talk about how important validation is. Being able to listen and then say something that makes the person feel heard - it’s empathy, but on a different level. If you can validate your team’s feelings, you’re on your way to building that trust.
How can PMs support their clients so they everyone is mutually aligned?
In much the same way as PMs can support their teams. Maybe not the candy part. But maybe the candy part. So much of what we do is build trust. We do it with our teams, we do it with our clients, we do it with our friends and family. That’s how things work, just in life. Alignment comes when everyone is truthful and trusting. It sounds simple, but I think all of us know how hard that can be. PMs strive for it all the time. I guess that makes us the best humans on the planet, right??
What are your recommendations for building solid relationships with your team and clients as a PM?
Get to know them on a personal level, and bring some of your own personality to the table! Understanding a bit of what they're going through and care about outside of work will help you empathize, and connect with them on a more personal level which will improve your communication and trust.
Do you envision staying in project management into the future or do you have other interests/passions you wish to pursue?
I used to always say, I’m a die hard PM and I don’t want to take any of the other paths that PMs can take. Typically those paths are into management of PMs and process (director and above) and operations. I was cool with “just” managing projects basically forever. Now, I’m more into community-building and thought-leadership within the PM practice…but I don’t think I’ll ever stop managing projects, at least just to keep my pulse on things.
Sometimes I feel like we are all human bots whose last day on Earth will be in front of a Zoom call. Were we more “human focused” in how we worked together even 10-15 years ago due to less technology than we are now or would you say we has other challenges back then that are less of a problem now due to remote work culture (i.e. bureaucracy, corporate office culture, depressing office interiors, cubicles, slow tech).
I think we’ve just traded in certain problems for other problems. But, although technology has clearly taken over, I do think we’re more human now than we’ve been. This may be BECAUSE we don’t have as much distraction like office drama and potlucks - now we can focus more on getting to know people as people. I think that’s a big part of a PM’s job: foster community. I think you can do that remotely with a lot of success - we’ve seen it over the past 2 years.
What are some of the key lessons that you would highlight for junior PMs who are looking to get started in the role in today’s fast paced digital world.
I also think that looking at PM case studies (there aren’t a ton, but there are some out there) can help because it’s not theoretical, it’s actual things that have happened. If you’re just starting with an agency, ask if they have those, or ask for retrospectives that have been done. Try to get as much real-world insight as possible. And find a mentor!!
